Sunday, August 15, 2010

Martin Burckhardt & Hans Peter Kuhn - Rushhour (tape, 1984)


Probably self-released, a sound collage of street sounds. I cut side a and b together as one long track, for an uninterrupted listening.

see comments

21 comments:

Hans Peter said...

unfortunately you published a download link for the work "Rush Hour" by Martin Burckhardt and Hans Peter Kuhn on your blog. Since I am one of the two copyright owner I know that I never granted you the rights to do so. Please delete the download button from your blog. I do not know where you got the tape, since it was never published as a cassette, there were only demos made and those are not for sale nor for unauthorized publication or unauthorized copying.

That you like the tape does not automatically give you the rights to publish it.

Please inform me, when the link is closed.

Best


Hans Peter Kuhn

433 RPM said...

Link removed. I have no idea why after 26 years you don't want any one to hear this, are you ashamed of this work? or is there a big bulk of money waiting for you somewhere when its not heard? Sometimes I don't understand the reasons for these remvals.
where i got the tape was shown in the post but also removed now.
433

433 RPM said...

p.s. since your profile is closed i hope this serves as a notificaton.

433

Hans Peter said...

Since you prefer to stay annonimous, I cannot give you a polite greeting.
Nevertheless I am happy to have this discussion in the public.

Here is my response to your mail, which is a bit different to your public comment, anyhow:


Wait a minute. Please let us get things straight. You broke the law, that is a fact. Copyright laws are still active. Now you do not like to get told, but things do not work that way. If I was mean I would have simply called my lawyer and let him work on it, which in the end is expensive ... for you! Ok, so much to this. Now let me answer your mail:


YOU WROTE:
i removed the link.

I ANSWER:
Thank you, this is the right thing to do under the circumstances we are in.

YOU WROTE:
a pity, since a) apparently nobody ever heard this outside the limitations of a radio broadcast

I ANSWER:
Right, it is a pity, but this does not get solved through your action. You are right, so far only few people have heard it and yes I would appreciate if more people would have a chance. But why shall people have the right to hear it without paying for it. Why do you believe everybody's work (except your own, I guess) should be available for everyone for free? If you seriously want people to listen to it, you can recommend it and inform them where they can achieve it (by paying a little money for it, as you do when you buy a CD or so). If everything is free for everyone at anytime, that is consumerism at its best. Is it that what you want? I always thought consumerism is not the solution but rather the problem. And there is a another bad thing connected to this concept. If you do not have to do any effort to get something, the thing you get, has no value. That is how people function. And you can see that easily. Where things are for free, people do not care. Where they have to pay, they are extremely careful to get what they paid for. I value my work highly, so I want people to value it as well and therefore they have to do some effort to get it. I am not talking about big moneys but to click a link is too little.

Part 2 follows...

Hans Peter said...

here comes part 2:

YOU WROTE:
and b) nobody will ever make money when this is heard or not heard, not you or me.
I ANSWER:
This is to much true. You still my possibilty to earn money with my work. If you publish my work for people to listen to it for free, I cannot sell it anymore. Imagine any producer would say: "great, we make a CD and I sell it to the audience that likes these kind of things, I sell it on the internet" Forget it. Because everybody can download it for free on your website, why should anybody pay a single cent for it to me. Why do you ignore my right to sell my work. I do not know what business you are in, but I am sure that you sell your worktime to somebody. If you work in an office, your employer pays you for the time that you are there, right? If you are a freelancer, you will charge people for the hours you've spent. If you are an artist, you will try to sell your work. That is how it goes. Why do I have to waive my right to earn money, just because it is fun for you? Please explain! Why is your right higher then mine.

YOU WROTE:
are you ashamed of this work?

I ANSWER:
Opposite, I am proud of it, that is why it is not free, it has a value. That does not always means only money, but money is the easiest way to trade and unfortunately money is the term we have to live with. I am not saying that I am totally happy with this situation.

YOU WROTE:
or is it one of those principle german things?

I ANSWER:
So...? From your surrounding messages I guess you are dutch. So is your attitude one of this dutch liberties that end up in a government that is half islamophobic? What do you want to tell me? That I am a stupid Nazi? Keep your mouth clean, please!

YOU WROTE:
but the post said where i got the tape, but you didn't read well. i removed it now and no longer willing to inform you.

I ANSWER:
Sorry, but I do not understand, there was a mentioning of something named eurocord (or the like) I clicked on their link and tried to find the piece in that catalogue. It was not. Nevertheless, if those people are publishing it, they also infringe the copyright. It does not make anything better.


But there is one more thing I would like to know. You claim that you want people to listen to music (or the like) that you like. That is nice, of course. But please explain to me, why can't you take the little effort and try to contact the copyright owners about your plans? If you google my name, you will eventually be able to contact me, so what is the problem in asking me if I agree to link a download. I allowed many people in the past to use my work. But they asked me, what makes you believe to have the right to this without asking the owner of the work. I do not understand. Do you have the same feeling about your kitchen or your car/bicycle/skateboard? Is it OK for you if anybody takes your car/bicycle/skateboard to take a ride, just because it is parked on the sidewalk?
Besides this effort is exactly what makes a work valuable. That is how collectors and curators make their names, they communicate but they do not steal.

Best

433 RPM said...

1. yes, i broke the 'law', sorry.
2. this work is not on CD or anywhere, so why not offer it for free (on your website for instance?). when there is interest (perhaps based on the free download), i always remove things. that's aprt of the function of blogs like this. and it works. various things have been re-issued.
3. many of the people i post music of have disappeared. i claim guilty of not googling your name, sorry about that. i should have done that.
4. my work in doing this is for free also.
5. i don't sell my worktime to nobody
6. i don't work in an office
7. i am not a freelancer
8. certainly no artist
9. i certainly wouldn't say i own 'more rights' than you.
10. i am hardly responsible for my government, even when i always vote (not for an izlamaphobic party)
11. the guy who gave me this tape, lend it to me, and eventually will be for sale. its just one copy he has, not a mass produced thing. i have no idea where he got it, but he sells tapes, which he collected throughout the years.
12. i don't have a car or skateboard, but feel free to use my bicycle anytime, or use the kitchen - which i share anyway.

EuRecords announcements said...

Hi,

I'm the current owner of the tape. You write that the tape is a demo tape. I just dug it up and I see no mention of that on the tape. For me it's a personal copy which I can sell to other people. There are still many collectors who prefer professionally produced original releases rather than MP3 downloads. It's my opinion that these kind of blogs are good advertisement for artists. Might it be an idea to put a part of the recording on the blog so people know what kind of sound-art you made?

Hans Peter said...

Although you still prefer to stay annonymous, I will respond to your message:

1. yes, i broke the 'law', sorry.

ANSWER:
Correct and you should consider that. I know that the law is an old-fashioned thing, but it allows societies to function at least more or less. This is specifically true in those countries that put the law as the basis of their being. It does not mean that everything that happens is lawful, but there is a much higher chance for lawful treatment then in those places where the law is ignored, I guess you agree.

2. this work is not on CD or anywhere, so why not offer it for free (on your website for instance?). when there is interest (perhaps based on the free download), i always remove things. that's aprt of the function of blogs like this. and it works. various things have been re-issued.

ANSWER:
Did it ever come to your mind, that the artist him/herself might wish to decide this question? I know there are a few examples where the artist was ignored (most prominent I guess is Franz Kafka) Nevertheless I think that the artist should have the right to say what is published and what not, don't you think? You don't tell me what you are doing, you stay in your cloud, I do not know what you do, but in one way or another you also try to maintain your life and to put a mark (like with your blog). That is OK, but why do you have to do it on other people's cost. You use MY work (and certainly many other's as well) to promote yourself. I know this happens all the time with curators, producers, promoters etc. BUT: Then I am a part of it. I can decide, if I want to go with that specific person or concept or if I don't. Do you understand what I mean? You do not allow me to decide, if I find it right or not, what you are doing. You just do it. For YOUR purposes, not for mine!

Part 2 follows

Hans Peter said...

Here is part 2

3. many of the people i post music of have disappeared. i claim guilty of not googling your name, sorry about that. i should have done that.

ANSWER:
Right!. You are on google with your blog, anyhow. And if you want to be taken seriously, that would be the way. Be professional about it and nobody will complain.

4. my work in doing this is for free also.

ANSWER:
Sorry, but this is bullshit. You do this, because it makes you feel good. As you say, you don't earn money with it, so it is not essential for your survival in an economic sense. It is wonderful that you can do that, congratulations. Still, it does not strip you of responsibilities. You are still responsible for what you do, even if it is only a hobby.

5. i don't sell my worktime to nobody

ANSWER:
Well, I guess, you will need to feed yourself with some calories per day and that you need some kind of shelter for the night. Not to speak of the costs of computers, electricity and internet connections. All of this will cost you some kind of money every month, which you will have to come up with. I do not believe that you go to the houses of the rich and break in to get what you need, or that you sell drugs, so you must do something to cover these costs. Of course, there is still the case of ypur parents, who might support you. But, believe me, they will die one day... And then you need to support yourself. So please don't tell me anything about your economic independence, there is no such thing.

part 3 follows

Hans Peter said...

here is part 3

6. i don't work in an office

ANSWER:
OK in a workshop, a school, a hospital, a part time employer, whatever, who cares. OK, maybe you just live from social welfare. Sorry for you. But please don't make your activities bring other people into the same situation. Even if you like it, not everybody does.

7. i am not a freelancer

ANSWER:
So what ARE you doing?

8. certainly no artist
ANSWER:
No problem!

9. i certainly wouldn't say i own 'more rights' than you.

ANSWER:
Wrong! You do exactly that! You do it indirectly. When you use my music without asking, you claim the right to do so. And with that you claim to have more rights to the music then myself. Because I cannot prevent you doing this.


10. i am hardly responsible for my government, even when i always vote (not for an izlamaphobic party)

ANSWER:
So am I not responsible for any strange german habits, OK? I would say, here we are even, OK?

11. the guy who gave me this tape, lend it to me, and eventually will be for sale. its just one copy he has, not a mass produced thing. i have no idea where he got it, but he sells tapes, which he collected throughout the years.

ANSWER:
Well these tapes were given out to people for promotional reasons. In the 80's the commercial pressure (specifically in Germany) for artists was very low. In those days we did not have to be careful, because everybody would simply accept that the artist has the right. That's why the tape does not carry the copyright marks. This was very different in the US in those days. They had everything marked. We believed (Yes, you are right, we were stupid) that we did not need to do so, we believed the people would accept it. And they did...then. Today this is no longer true. But does that mean that the right is not true anymore either?

12. i don't have a car or skateboard, but feel free to use my bicycle anytime, or use the kitchen - which i share anyway.

ANSWER:
We are talking about borrowing without asking! That is the crucial point. You can borrow my bicycle too, but you will have to ask. And I am sure I will have to ask you too. If you need your bicycle at this specific moment, there will be a problem, either for you or for me. Besides, it is your decision to offer your bicycle to me. That is the important difference. You say: Feel free to use my bicycle.
I never said to you: Feel free to use my music.
That is what makes the difference. You have the right to say: Feel free to use my bicycle. You do not have the right to use my music without asking, if I did not allow you in the first place.

I hope i could make my point clear.

Best
Hans Peter Kuhn

Hans Peter said...

here is part 4

11. the guy who gave me this tape, lend it to me, and eventually will be for sale. its just one copy he has, not a mass produced thing. i have no idea where he got it, but he sells tapes, which he collected throughout the years.

ANSWER:
Well these tapes were given out to people for promotional reasons. In the 80's the commercial pressure (specifically in Germany) for artists was very low. In those days we did not have to be careful, because everybody would simply accept that the artist has the right. That's why the tape does not carry the copyright marks. This was very different in the US in those days. They had everything marked. We believed (Yes, you are right, we were stupid) that we did not need to do so, we believed the people would accept it. And they did...then. Today this is no longer true. But does that mean that the right is not true anymore either?

12. i don't have a car or skateboard, but feel free to use my bicycle anytime, or use the kitchen - which i share anyway.

ANSWER:
We are talking about borrowing without asking! That is the crucial point. You can borrow my bicycle too, but you will have to ask. And I am sure I will have to ask you too. If you need your bicycle at this specific moment, there will be a problem, either for you or for me. Besides, it is your decision to offer your bicycle to me. That is the important difference. You say: Feel free to use my bicycle.
I never said to you: Feel free to use my music.
That is what makes the difference. You have the right to say: Feel free to use my bicycle. You do not have the right to use my music without asking, if I did not allow you in the first place.

I hope i could make my point clear.

Best
Hans Peter Kuhn

433 RPM said...

i can promote myself if i wish to stay anonymous?

discussion soon closed

Hans Peter said...

This goes to EUrecords, sorry, I do not know how to answer you directly.
EUrecord says:
I'm the current owner of the tape. You write that the tape is a demo tape. I just dug it up and I see no mention of that on the tape.
ANSWER:
Please read my notes to 433rpm. Those tapes were given out as demos. In the 80's the social agreement of copyright was still strong and it was not necessary to be specific. Unfortunately this has changed drastically in the last years.

EUrecords says:
For me it's a personal copy which I can sell to other people.
ANSWER:
As far as I understand you have 1 (one) cassette copy of the piece. Right this is a personal copy and you can sell it. There exactly lies he difference. This tape can change ownership. No problem, like a car does a book or anything else. But offering it as a download in the internet is a completely different thing. That is distributing it. And that I do not like to have happen without my agreement.

EUrecords says:
There are still many collectors who prefer professionally produced original releases rather than MP3 downloads. It's my opinion that these kind of blogs are good advertisement for artists. Might it be an idea to put a part of the recording on the blog so people know what kind of sound-art you made?

ANSWER:
I appreciate your opinion, but would be pleased if others would appreciate my opinion as well. And my opinion is, that I should be asked before someone publishes my work in the internet. You know as well as me, once a byte is published in the internet it stays her. You cannot get it off anymore.

Thank you for your understanding.

And thank you for not publishing my work on the internet without written authorization.

433 RPM said...

discussion closed on my part.

Hans Peter said...

OK, you cut the rest of my comment and answer with not understandable question. Of course you can do so. Still it is very unpolite to stay annonymous in a discussion. And in this case, where you have the power of the microphone - as we see: you switch it off - it becomes very interesting. I am sure that you see the internet and your work as a democratisation of the socity. Lovely, isn't it, when one thinks about it.

Enjoy your future. But please stay away from me. OK?

Thanks

Hans Peter said...

Sorry, it took a bit longer to understand your question.

Yes, you can promote yourself with this kind of anonimosity. The trick is simple: You have a name, it is 443 RPM
Only noone knows who (as a person) that is. Until you tell them. You have the power to change it. But noone else does. That is your choice of doing it. I find it unfair. But for you this of course good. If you are clever and lucky, you might be able to make money on it... Hahaha....

As I said. Good luck for your future.

433 RPM said...

almost all of your comments came twice so i deleted those. maybe by accident i cut one too many?

i am not clever, let alone lucky, and making money from this blog is not my objective. so that's my reason to remain anonymous.

and don't worry: i won't touch any thing that has your name on it.

433

EuRecords announcements said...

Hans Peter,

Thanks so much for putting your time in this argument. My compliments with your well described arguments. This issue is currently a lot in the press and with your opinion you certainly point out very good why you and probably also fellow musicians, movie makers etc. are angry about the fact that almost all their work is donwloadable in some way nowadays.

The main purpose of this specific blog is to make known all those long forgotten and detoriating recordings. That's why I did lend him many tapes from my archives in order to make it available for the long future. I was afraid that after 10 more years these magnetic tapes wouldn't be listenable anymore. In a very few times the owner of the right reacts and in that case the link immediately is erased. In general there are mainly positive reactions. But it's also good to hear your point as you have a good reason to be angry.

I just want to point out that this specific blog with its intention of conservating old recordings is really something else than all those sites for exchanging music and films.

Peter

Hans Peter said...

please apologize my late response, I wasn't aware that you would continue the discussion.
I am pleased to see the new note at the top that allows copyright owner to subject (including an e-mail adress to do so), thanks!

433 RPM, I do believe, that you don't make any money with it. Nevertheless, that doesn't make any difference. And, it does not explain, why you stay anonymous. What do you have to lose? My work is labeled with my name, so are my comments here. I find it only fair to discuss open and not with code names, as you find so often in the internet, especially with comments from people. Seriously I ask you to think about it. You publish other people's music but stay anonymous yourself. Do you see what I mean?

(Part 2 follows)

Hans Peter said...

Part 2:
Peter of EuRecords: thanks for you sympathetic response. YES, I am aware of the discussion about the copyright laws, that is why react so strongly. I do not want it to be erased. It is a very important law for all artists all over the world. In Germany - for example - there is the GEMA (they call them German Mafia and I know why) and you can have opposite opinions about it, but one thing is for sure, they take it serious. If your music is played they will cash in. Not only for the stars, also for the little guys. I do not agree to the rules of money distribution inside the GEMA and I think it should be discussed, but the fact it is there, is great. If somebody plays my work for a ballett (it happens every now and then) I get some royalties (nothing to get rich, but nice). If somebody in the US uses it, I get nothing, because ASCAM/ASCAP do not have the same power.

Unfortunately they cannot do anything about downloads.

Now to your story. I agree tapes do not last. But be assured I have made digital copies of my tape works long ago and this one exists in several different copies on CD, on a hard drive, on my server. So I try my best to make sure it does not get lost. And as much as I (and of course my co-author Martin Burckhardt) appreciate the works of museum people, who try to conserve the things if the past, we are happy to hear about people like you, who obviously take this role for this kind of rare music/sound works. I can offer you to send you a CD (which is the copy of the old master tape - so best possible quality) if you like. Both, Martin and I would be happy to publish it and we do not have problems with the fact of publishing it, only we want to have some sort of control over it. But I think you understood this long ago.

So to the archiving. Great, thanks for doing it. And I am sure ALL artists will appreciate this. But why not offer it in a bit different way. Like mentioning it in the blog, offer a 3-5 minute excerpt as download and if someone wants it, they can e-mail with their name and address and get a copy (either by qualified download or by yousendit or the like). This allows to know who got a digital copy and who might publish it. You understand what I mean? It is not about making money (there is almost no chance to do so anyhow), but it is about the difference of getting a present or stealing things. For me it is THE difference.

Let me know, what you think. If you want to speak privat, you can e-mail me at hpk@hanspeterkuhn.com

All the best to both of you

Hans Peter

Hans Peter said...

Part 3:

Now to your story. I agree tapes do not last. But be assured I have made digital copies of my tape works long ago and this one exists in several different copies on CD, on a hard drive, on my server. So I try my best to make sure it does not get lost. And as much as I (and of course my co-author Martin Burckhardt) appreciate the works of museum people, who try to conserve the things if the past, we are happy to hear about people like you, who obviously take this role for this kind of rare music/sound works. I can offer you to send you a CD (which is the copy of the old master tape - so best possible quality) if you like. Both, Martin and I would be happy to publish it and we do not have problems with the fact of publishing it, only we want to have some sort of control over it. But I think you understood this long ago.

So to the archiving. Great, thanks for doing it. And I am sure ALL artists will appreciate this. But why not offer it in a bit different way. Like mentioning it in the blog, offer a 3-5 minute excerpt as download and if someone wants it, they can e-mail with their name and address and get a copy (either by qualified download or by yousendit or the like). This allows to know who got a digital copy and who might publish it. You understand what I mean? It is not about making money (there is almost no chance to do so anyhow), but it is about the difference of getting a present or stealing things. For me it is THE difference.

Let me know, what you think. If you want to speak privat, you can e-mail me at hpk@hanspeterkuhn.com

All the best to both of you

Hans Peter